’12 Steps To Destruction’ now online!

’12 Steps To Destruction,’ Martin and Deidre Bobgan’s groundbreaking book is now available as an e-book. Thank you, Bobgans! Here: http://www.pamweb.org/e-books/12steps-ebk.pdf

For an amazing (and fairly quick) read, go to Chapter 6: ‘Twelve Step Idolatry

How long? How long will we pretend it is fine to bring all these false gods into the House of God? Alcoholics Anonymous should never be allowed in a Bible believing church. King Josiah tore the idols out–why are so many of us in such a hurry to disrespect our God and bring them back in? 

“If you will return, O Israel,” declares the Lord, “Then you should return to Me. And if you put away your detested things from My presence, And will not waver, And you will swear, ‘As the Lord lives,’ In truth, in justice, and in righteousness; Then the nations will bless themselves in Him, and in Him they will glory.” (Jeremiah 4:1-2) 

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12 CommentsLeave a comment

  1. hi my name is mad dog clean an sober 30 ys thru jesus christ . aa is a cult ; 1ve been preaching in aa for 22 ys . yes an having results . here in australia an new zealand , aa is new age teaching , false gods .

  2. Thank you for advertising on the internet the free download of the 12 Steps to Destruction. I am almost finished reading it and am horrified to see how much deception is in these 12-Step programs that are infiltrating the church in record numbers. AA provides their ‘big book’ for free on line to any desperate lost soul searching so this truth in ’12 Steps to Destruction’ is now available also for God’s truth in Jesus Christ to set the captives free.
    Thank you and keep fighting the good fight.

  3. Thanks, Chaz.

  4. The offloading of the failure of the Evangelical Church onto AA is pathetic… even by a secular writer. It is an opinion, not a fact.

    To be explicit, I think priests having forced anal sex with little boys may have a somewhat greater influence on where the church is at.

    As would the ridiculous empires built by many mega churches and tv ministers. And the publicized affairs of church leaders.

    There will always be outside influences that try to taint the church. Look at what Mormonism and Jehovahs Witnessism has distorted biblical christianity. And neither of them are taking over.

    AA is not to blame for the state of the church. Nor is evolutionary science theory, or new age philosophy.

    The church is largely “unattractive” and “irrelevant” to this generation. And we, the church have done this on our own. We are not the kind of people that the current world is attracted to. Largely I believe because we do not follow the example of Jesus and live as he did.

    Anyway… enough said on this.

    I respect that you have your opinion but I do not agree.

    Jesus Christ is who he said he was when he lived on this earth in the form of a man. I believe that he died for my sins and continues to forgive my shortcomings. He worked in my life through the 12-steps to teach me how to get sober and live a better way than I had before.

    That is as much as I can convince anyone of. Most of the rest is just noise and intellectual argument.

    I will carry this message to those who are still suffering. Their sobriety will give them a chance to know Jesus. That is my way of sharing the gospel.

    Thanks for the dialogue.

    Ciao.,

    Chaz

  5. Chaz,
    I didn’t mean to suggest you see all “gods” as equal. I should have phrased it differently. I mean there are multitudes in AA who see it this way, because this is what they have been taught.

    A.A. is an interesting religion. A chameleon. It is pantheistic, where anything and everything can be seen as “god,” yet it also teaches that “god” is in us. (Big Book pg. 46-47) The Big Book says, “Sometimes we had to search fearlessly but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis, it is only there that He may be found.”

    It dilutes the belief of Christians. Secular author Christine Wicker, in ‘The Fall of the Evangelical Nation,’ credits Alcoholics Anonymous with “hastening the fall of the evangelical church.” The author notes how A.A. “slowly exposed people to the notion they could get [a god] without the dogma, the doctrine, and the outdated rules. Without the church, in fact.”

    And this is what’s happening. Those sober people with a false god–Chaz, an awful, indescribable eternity awaits.

    Anyway, appreciate you listening, and I appreciate your well thought out arguments.

  6. I do not accept all “Gods” as equal. I do accept that people can only come to an understanding that they are capable of under their current circumstances and stage of life.

    I know guys who were in organized crime who are now deep believers. Who am I to say that thier journey through crime and that lifestyle was not what they needed to do to finally come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ.

    I can say this…. I have yet to meet the Christian who came to believe by being told he is an “idol-worshipper”. Most people wouldnt have a clue what we were talking about.

    I do know tons of people who opened their mind up a bit to believe that God could exist…. then became Christians.

    So my experience suggests to me that there is value in AA. And I am convinced that the 12-steps, no matter what man has made of them, were a gift of God to us alcoholics.

    More alcoholics have become sober this way than any other way in recorded history. THat is a testament to God’s glory. Not all will recognize it. That does not make it wrong.

    People will distort it, that does not make it wrong either. The “church” has been distorted to the degree that some rationalize abuse of others… including children… for the sake of the gospel. So nothing is beyond corrption.

    If someone in AA wants to use the forces of nature, for example, as their higher power, and it gets them sober, then fine. It will not give them eternal life. And if that is where they leave off on their spiritual search, then that is their matter to deal with. No different than teh person who came to church and was offended by the pastor’s suit or overpriced car or whatever.

    God shows up at AA. If that were not the case, I would not be sober today. God can show up wherever he wants. Jesus Christ showed up in some pretty desparate places. He loved people, healed people, taught people.

    The only place he had any trouble doing so was int he temple of the established religious systems of the day. The people who killed him were the self-righteous protectionistic leaders of their religious empires. Thats how it appears to me anyway.

    Ciao.

    Chaz

  7. Chaz,
    My writing has been primarily for believers who are involved in A.A. The Lord, I believe, is calling His people out. This is what the Bible tells us.

    You ask, “What I do not get is why you feel that people have to have a straight-line experience to know God?”

    Good question. I am simply going by the Word of God.
    Acts 4:12 tells us, “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

    No one–NO ONE–comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. Since this is so, is it really all that kind accepting all gods as equal?

  8. What I do not get is why you feel that people have to have a straight-line experience to know God?

    I also do not understand how telling people that they are idol worshippers, etc. will have any appeal or represent a loving approach whatsoever.

    These are antiquated terms that have virtually no meaning in today’s world. This is not to say that the practice of idol worship is not alive and well.

    Just, come on man, talk in modern english. All the king james verbage has virtually no meaning to the current generation.

    AA’s encouragement to seek a power greater than our own selves is a take-off point. It is not a destination. We cannot control where people’s journey will lead. The mere fact that people acknowledge that God exists is merely a first step in a journey of discovery.

    Many peple come to church and get turned off by the narrow-minded force-feeding they receive. AA simply encourages us to open our minds and look further.

    And in the process, we get sober and life gets better. AA does not offer eternal salvation. This is an outside issue. No different than a doctor offering insulin to a diabetic offers anything other than reprieve from diabetese.

    The stance that says believe exactly as we do and do it on our timeline or burn in hell… well… let me ask how many people are getting to know God that way?

    Ciao.

    Chaz

  9. Chaz,
    Well, yeah, I am familiar with drugs and alcohol. I have been homeless in four cities, slept in alleys, and so on.

    I am free because Christ has freed me. Yes, there are messed up churches. God’s church, however, will be without blemish.

    You say, “AA does not define God for anyone. It simply encourages people to seek God to the best of one’s ability.”

    But Chaz, God does define who He is. He says, “To whom then will you liken Me that I would be his equal?” says the Holy One. (Isaiah 40:25)

    He says, “I am the Lord, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to graven images.” (Isaiah 42:8)

    He warns us about worshiping with non-believers, as if He is but one among many. He says, “Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness with lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever. Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols?” (2 Corinthians 6:14-16)

    Then Scripture tells us to come out and be separate. We are not to drink out of the same spiritual cup as the world. We are certainly instructed to bring the Gospel to the unsaved–and it is good to remember we are wretches ourselves, saved by grace.

  10. Thanks for the dialogue.

    AA does not define God for anyone. It simply encourages people to seek God to the best of one’s ability.

    AA gives no opinion on what a person should or shouldn’t beleive. It has merely recognized that if someone can grasp the fact that a power greater than themselves exists, even without full understanding, that they can find sobriety.

    Many of us are journeyors who are on the pathway of discovery. AA encourages us to be open-minded and see where “religious people are right”. This was written in the 30s where religious people would have been Christians and Jews.

    AA offers a pathway of spiritual discovery to many people who have been turned off by narrow-minded, condesending christians and hypocrites.

    To me, the organized church as it exists today in North America is its own worst enemy. It seeks to build confirmists, not believers.

    AA has done for me what the church could not. Yet I believe in God the same way the church people who could not or would not help me and others. In fact, I have an experience with God and a practical application of the Bible that I never had attending church and worshiping the North American conformist way. And I did this by opening up my nind and moving away from the fear-based, closed-minded, christianese-speaking, self-righteous, organizations of Christians.

    I thank God that like the Prodigal son, He allowed me to wander off for a while but then welcomed me home when I arrived broken. Not the local church, but the the rooms of AA where God showed me the truth of the Bible. He showed me a practical application of Grace. And a practical outworking of Philippians 4 where I could surrender my anxieties to Him (Step 3) and be grateful for what I had left…. Today…. I enjoy a peace that passes all understanding. Just as promised.

    Your focus appears to be that many people in AA do not recognize God as God of the Bible and that AA does not require them to? Frankly, nor does the Alpha course. It merely poses the questions that point in God’s direction.

    Those that choose not to believe or cannot yet see may simply not be ready yet. The North American Church is constantly turning people off with hypocritical behaviour of many of its members and leaders. I think this is a bigger stumbling block to the spreading of the gospel than AA or anything else.

    Churches have become self-serving corporations in many cases. That suck the life and finances out of people. AA is run by and for the people it serves.

    In AA, we get a result. I am years clean and sober. The organized church could not offer me any such thing. Nor could could the medical community or psychiatry.

    Without my sobriety, I have little to offer my family, wife, kids, employer, fellow man, fellow alcoholic, etc. I am a better Christian today thanks to God reaching me through the 12 Steps as presented by AA.

    All the church could offer was to pray over me yet again and stern down-talking. They have no clue!

    Yet, by re-connecting with God through the process that AA offered me, I can now be available to the Church and have a tangible story to tell that can help others. Dissuading people from the life-changing power of the 12 Steps may be leaving them to die and never have a chance to know Jesus.

    All the talk about Idolatry will not get anyone’s attention when in their active alcoholism and addiction they are slowly and painfully killing themselves and others. The 12 Steps is a gift of God that gives us another chance. It is without condition. We can use it to find Him or return to Him, or we can misuse it. Like any other gift of God.

    You know how some say that Christianity is a “relationship”, not a religion because we can have an experience with God? Well I have had a few experiences called sobriety, recovery, and serenity. These are tangible gifts of God that all the theologizing in the world cannot argue around. And they were given to me by God through AA.

    “Let God be true though every man be a liar,” I does not change my experience with God just because the guy next to me in AA does not see God the way I do (yet).

    Theologize all you want. While you do so, God is working through AA to change lives. Mine included. It may not be a pathway that you can understand. But then again, I don’t know if you have ever had a drinking or drugging problem that you could not stop by any other means. I do not know if you have ever got in a fight with a bat-swinging drug dealer. I don’t know if you have ever been so depressed and distraught that you wanted to put bullet in your own head.

    I have. And the organized church full of theologizing Christians could not do a thing to help me. Nor could their Church-funded “recovery program”… which was just a bait-and-switch evangelism program.

    But AA did. A room full of alcoholics who had travelled the path before me. Many of them Christians.

    Sorry brother, I do not find your standpoint relevant in any way. God is moving through AA whether you like it or not. And just like church, not all people meet God as we understand him in AA.

    But one thing is certain for anyone who hangs around AA long enough… they know there is something beyond themselves. So that at least opens the door to recognzine that God exists. And perhaps this is an open door…. a first step on a journey.

    I do not know how anyone can say that they know it is not. And bottom line…. AA works. Not at making Christians, but at helping people get sober. And only an alcoholic can understand what that is like.

    Ciao.

    Chaz

  11. Chaz,
    I know it must seem strange. All the great people in A.A. (and the not so cool people, just like everywhere else), and here I am saying the 12 Steps did not originate from Christ, A.A. is not approved of by Christ (anymore than the pagan religions of Jeremiah’s time were), and that Christ is our answer, not some anti-Biblical all-gods religion.

    It’s in the Bible. People have been bowing to other gods/idols and then showing up before the Lord to say, “Hey, I’m with you.” This is what many–perhaps all–Christians in A.A. do. A transference of faith has taken place. A.A. is very much an idol.

    Behold, you are trusting in deceptive words to no avail. Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery and swear falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal and walk after other gods you have not known, then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, ‘We are delivered!–that you may do all these abominations? (Jeremiah 7:8-11)

    Consider Chaz, that a false church is rising, a false god and a false system. The 12 Steps are a significant part of this.
    Your comments are welcome here any time.

  12. Funny…. only people I read about in the Bible that Jesus ever angrily opposed were the narrow-minded, self-righteous, establised leaders.

    While people theorize around the 12 Steps and its connection to the Bible, alcoholics are getting sober, addicts are getting clean, and overeaters are getting their eating under control.

    And all do so with an openness to God. And then the intolerant Christians of the world get upset because these seekers havent arrived at the same conclusions YET as they do?

    Keep on theorizing and theologizing! Write all the books you want. It doesnt change the fact tha God shows up at AA meetings! Lives are changed.

    These are gifts of God without expecation of return. Yes, and I do mean God of the Bible. Jesus Christ. Jesus never required anyone to believe in him in exchange for a miracle.

    AA is not a bait-and-switch evangelism program. It is a way for people to get sober. AA does not offer salvation, just sobriety.


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